Podcasts

Alessandra Moore: Could you start by telling us a little bit about your role and what excites you most about working with future lawyers?

Melissa Leidl: Sure. So, you gave a great intro, so thank you for that. Basically, I oversee full cycle recruitment of summer associates, entry level associates, and judicial clerks as well.

As part of all of that, I also manage our summer program, so that’s one of our biggest aspects of my role. I would say for me, the most exciting part of the job is working with the law students and helping them find their path.

At this point in my career, I’ve been fortunate enough to watch so many amazing attorneys grow into their roles. I’ve seen them on their first day as a summer associate, to now partners and holding leadership positions in the firm. I just love watching that growth. I think that’s what excites me most about what I do.

Alessandra Moore: So, you mentioned you oversee Lowenstein’s summer program. For law students who may not know what to expect, what does a typical day look like for a summer associate at a firm like Lowenstein?

Melissa Leidl: So, most will tell you there’s no typical day, right? So, it’s going to be different every single day, which I think is another exciting part about the profession. It can include training sessions, meetings with attorneys. Obviously, you’re going to be working, so whatever assignment you’re working on in that particular day.

Maybe there’s a lunch and learn that day about a specific attorney or a different practice group that you’d want to attend. We have networking coffee breaks. You might be going for ice cream with an associate to learn a little bit about more what they do. There could be potential evening event that night to go to, a social event. So, there’s a lot of different aspects to a day and it never looks the same, which is kind of exciting.

Alessandra Moore: You mentioned that summer associates are working. Are summer associates doing real work at Lowenstein?

Melissa Leidl: They are doing real work. They’re doing billable work. They’re doing client work. They’re absolutely getting real life experience and exposures to different aspects and different groups.

Alessandra Moore: So, what kinds of assignments or experiences can summer associates expect beyond the traditional, write me a memo on blah, blah, blah?

Melissa Leidl: Exactly. So, depending on the group, obviously your assignment is going to vary. So, depending on what you’re working on and who you’re working with, it’s going to look a little different.

The great thing about Lowenstein is that you’re going to get real work experience. So, you’re not just going to be doing busy work like you would, potentially, elsewhere. You’ll be getting writing assignments, shadow experiences, real client work. Maybe you get to go to court even and watch somebody.

First year associate assignments and projects is what you’ll be getting. You can explore different aspects from the assignment pool that we have. I always encourage students that even if you come in knowing what you want to do, this is one of the only opportunities in your career that you can actually explore different groups. So, whether that be, you know you want to be in litigation, that’s amazing.

But even if you don’t want to go outside that realm, make sure you’re working with different partners, different associates. If you’re not sure, you can explore different aspects. Our West Coast offices do get assigned into a practice group as summer associates, but even in that sense, they can still take on an assignment from the assignment pool. They can still work with different attorneys across offices, and they can still get to see some other aspects of the law and what they’re practicing.

Alessandra Moore: When I was a summer associate at Lowenstein many moons ago, I didn’t even know what white collar was. And I thought, I came in guns blazing that I wanted to be an employment lawyer, and wasn’t expecting to take on different types of assignments and just sort of happened to—a white collar assignment fell into my lap. I took it, I loved it. I took another one. I loved it.

And here I am now, oh my gosh, seven years later in the white collar group doing only white collar work. I haven’t done employment since.

Melissa Leidl: Exactly. But you don’t know what you don’t know. So, when you come in as a summer, even if you think you know that I’ve been doing this for a long time now and every single summer I have somebody come in, I want to do litigation, I want to do litigation. They do their first litigation assignment and they’re like, “Oh, this is not for me. Let me switch.”

And they grab a corporate assignment, and it’s love at first sight, and they are obsessed with what they’re doing. So it happens, and that’s the important part about exploring and getting to know different aspects.

Alessandra Moore: I think that’s a really good piece of advice, that everyone listening to this podcast who is beginning in a summer program, whether it be here or somewhere else, to try everything. If you have an opportunity to go observe somebody in court, take it. If there’s an opportunity to sit in on a board presentation, take it. The summer programs are what you make it.

But you mentioned before, Melissa, that summer programs often have a social side. You mentioned something about a coffee chat or evening events. How important are these networking and relation building opportunities to the summer associate experience?

Melissa Leidl: I think this is just another prong about the summer program. And I think it’s almost equally as important as the assignment aspect, which your work is utmost important. That’s what you’re here for. You’re here to work, you’re here to learn, you’re here to take it all in.

But the other part of your, quote, “job” as a summer associate, is to get to know the firm socially and get to know people outside of work. I think it’s really important. These people are potentially, you’re going to be spending a lot of time with. Let’s face it, you’re going to do a lot of work as an attorney, so it’s important you get to know them on a personal level as well.

It’s also nice to get out of the office a little bit and meet others that you may not have crossed paths with during your day. And a great way to learn what people do and that could eventually get you work.

So, you’re looking at this going to some networking event, and it may seem, oh, that’s just social. But no, I mean, that’s how a lot of people pick up work. You meet people, you start talking about what they do, that really interests you. You let them know that you’re interested in that. And then the next time they have an assignment that comes up, who are they going to turn to?

So, I think that it’s equally as important to attend all these social events and get to know people outside of the office.

Alessandra Moore: When I was a summer associate, that was one thing that felt a little overwhelming to me. It was my first time in a real job, and my first time having to come to the office every day. And I felt like I was working so hard from nine to five and then at six o’clock, I had to go to some dinner. And I love the way that you phrased it of, it’s so important to get to know people and to get to know the work that people do around this firm because hopefully you will be spending the next several years of your life working with these people. It’s important to get your name out there and to learn. So, I’m really happy that you touched on that.

If a summer associate finishes an assignment or has downtime, what’s the best way to proactively seek out new opportunities?

Melissa Leidl: This is so important. The best policy is to be proactive. Reach out to people directly. Walk around. Take a lap. Take a lap around the office. See who’s in, see whose doors open. See who you can pop in and say hello to. Maybe you have a common space that we have here in our office in Roseland. We have what’s called the lab. It’s a great place for people to connect, grab coffee, sit, chat, get to know people a little bit.

And again, that could lead to work, that could lead to just learning. Even if it’s not just about the work, it’s just about learning what other people do around the firm. Go to the hub, which is our intranet, or our website, and find different things that interest you. Maybe find that common denominator, whether that’s a practice group interest, maybe it’s an undergrad, maybe it’s an alumni from your undergrad.

Go and connect with that person. Say hello. Introduce yourself. I think that’s the best way to just get out and get more opportunity and get your name out there. You will be top of mind when they’re thinking about their next assignment or the next project that they need to do.

Alessandra Moore: I love when summer associates knock on my door and say, introduce themselves, say hi, ask me about what I do. I would encourage every summer associate, no matter where you’re working to, A, go to the office. I think that’s an important first step. And B, when you’re at the office, make sure that you’re talking to people, going to the 3:00 PM snack time, or eating lunch in the lab so people get to know you. Because like you said, that’s just critical for success, is to start to get to know people. And it’s really fun, right?

Melissa Leidl: It’s fun. And let’s be honest, people like to talk about themselves. So, if you ask anybody what type of work they’re doing, what are they interested in, what are they doing right now? They’re going to be so excited to talk to you about that. That’s low hanging fruit. That’s an easy layup for you to just go by and chat with people.

Alessandra Moore: So, where you’re in the summer program, how important would you say responsiveness, communication, and professionalism, are during the summer associate program?

Melissa Leidl: Glad you brought this up. I think these are probably the, it’s the number one critique that we receive from attorneys about summer associates is kind of all related to responsiveness and communication.

Alessandra Moore: Let’s start with responsiveness.

Melissa Leidl: Yeah, let’s start there. I think, number one, a misconception of a summer associate is, this is a scenario. You get an email from a partner asking a question. You don’t know the answer. So, you then take the time and go and try to research that, try to find the answer, try to find the solution.

It’s hours and hours later, and you respond back to that partner and say, “Oh, here’s your answer.” They are not going to be pleased because they have no idea that you were doing that in that amount of time. They have now since gone to another associate. They’ve gone to Knowledge Resource Center. They’ve gone all over the place and are spinning their wheels simply because you’ve not responded.

If you had just sent an email back, simply, “I’m on it. Give me some time. Let me do my research. This is my game plan. This is what I’m going to do. Here are my steps. I will be back in touch with you by the end of the day with an answer, with a solution, and we can go from there with an update.”

That is going to go such a long way, because then they know, “Okay, you’re on it. You’re going to take care of it, you’re going to handle it,” and they’ll have a response from you by X time.

If you don’t do that, they spin their wheels. And then even if you do come to them eventually with a solution, they’re long gone. That ship has sailed almost. And a lot of times that creates more frustration because everything is a domino. Everything, and I think sometimes summer associates don’t always understand how important they are, and what a cog they are in the whole wheel of everything. They’re a very integral part of any assignment or project that they’re working on with an attorney.

So, it’s very important that they make sure that they’re in communication with them, whatever that looks like, and that they’re responding accordingly. And it doesn’t have to be that you know that answer right away or you know the response right away. You can take a beat. That’s okay. But I think the most important thing is to just let them know that that’s the direction that you’re going in and that’s your game plan.

Alessandra Moore: That’s such good advice. I can’t tell you how frustrating it is. You send an email, you think it’s being worked on, and then you have to circle back and say, “Wait a second, they never responded.”

Melissa Leidl: It’s a black hole.

Alessandra Moore: Yeah. And it’s just the mental capacity needed to say like, “Oh, did so-and-so respond to that?” I think that’s a great first step. Now let’s talk about professionalism during the summer program.

Melissa Leidl: Yes. I think, again, one of the most important things, being professional and being respectful. So, I think that they kind of go hand in hand. And I say this because this is something that you need from the second you walk through the threshold of an office, and you greet the receptionists that are sitting there, to the minute that you walk into a client meeting. All of this should be the same. You should be respectful and professional at all times.

So, whether it’s meetings, internal meetings with different attorneys, or maybe an opportunity to be on a client meeting, which is amazing. So that’s going to look maybe a little bit different in each realm, but a couple of things that I always recommend, be on time. If you’re on time, you’re late. So especially as a summer associate, I mean, that’s something that I grew up with.

Alessandra Moore: And I’ll just jump in here. This morning I had a very early meeting and it was like down to the wire. I’m like driving like a crazy person, and the meeting started at 8:00 AM, and I was like basically pulling into the parking lot at 7:58. And then running into the building, checking into security. I basically walked into the meeting room at eight on the dot. And I said to myself like, “Why didn’t I just wake up 10 minutes earlier?” For all of this stress I just caused myself, it’s 10…

Melissa Leidl: 10 minutes.

Alessandra Moore:   ... minutes.

Melissa Leidl: Yeah.

Alessandra Moore: And I would’ve had a much calmer, easier morning rather than showing up all frazzled. I think being on time, there’s nothing worse than when you’re sitting in traffic, and you’re seeing the clock tick.

Melissa Leidl: So stressful.

Alessandra Moore: So stressful. And you can save yourself that time and anxiety and stress if you just wake up a little bit earlier or like aim to get somewhere 15 minutes or give yourself that grace period.

Melissa Leidl: Give yourself the time. I think that’s so important. And I think especially as a summer associate, listen, if you’re a partner, you’re an associate, you’ve kind of earned your space. And this is what I tell them all the time too, don’t compare yourself. And if associate walks in at 10:00 AM, that doesn’t mean you can walk in at 10:00 AM. They’ve earned that right. They may have a different schedule. They may have something that they’ve talked about with their partners. They may have been here till 3:00 AM.

Alessandra Moore: Right.

Melissa Leidl: You don’t know. So, I always say it’s one thing, just kind of keep your eye on the prize. And as a summer, you should be a couple of minutes early to every meeting. You shouldn’t be the one strolling in with your Starbucks two minutes after the meeting starts. That’s not a good look.

So, it’s all in the vein of just making yourself look the best that you possibly can and presenting yourself in the best vein that you possibly can. So, I think that that’s super important. So be on time.

Put your phone away. When you’re in a meeting, when you’re at lunch, even if it looks like it’s something, maybe it’s even just you’re at the bowling event. It doesn’t really matter. If you have your phone out and you’re texting, and whether that’s personal or obviously, understood, there’s sometimes you need to send a quick text, personal text, or maybe it’s something you need to get something quickly out in an email, all of that. I understand that. But at the same time, if you’re sitting there the whole time on your phone, you’re not present, you’re not there, you’re not listening to what’s happening around you, you’re not listening to the person in front of you.

Alessandra Moore: There’s nothing worse than when you’re at a meal with someone and they’re constantly looking at their phone or texting. That’s the worst feeling in the world. You’re like, “I took time out of my day to be here.”

Melissa Leidl: Exactly.

Alessandra Moore: You can’t take time out of yours. I’m really glad that you said that because I think I’ve noticed since summer associates in years past, that’s been my number one kind of critique, is that people are very focused on their phones and social media and texting. And it does feel, those summer associates that put the phone away or that aren’t constantly looking at it, stand out to me so much more than those that are kind of texting at the table or scrolling.

Melissa Leidl: Absolutely. And if there is some big, you don’t have to give away all of your personal information, but say you’re, I don’t know, somebody’s sick in the hospital and you’re waiting for a phone call to make sure they’re okay. Okay, that’s fine. You sit down at the table and you can say, “I’m so sorry I have my phone out. I’m just waiting for a call,” just to make sure this person’s aware. Everybody will be understanding of that, but if you don’t kind of enter with that and the whole time, you’re just sitting on your phone, people are going to be wondering and they’re also going to walk away thinking that you had no interest in anything that they had to say. And that includes whether it’s a one-on-one lunch, or if you’re sitting in a meeting, in a panel or training. And even if it’s on Zoom, people can see.

We’ve all become a little bit more adept to Zoom these days, and you notice things. You notice when people aren’t looking in the camera, you notice when people are multitasking, you notice these things. So even if it’s not in person, you should still be plugged in and still be listening and be attentive.

Alessandra Moore: Let’s talk about those Zoom meetings, because I really think there are some professionalism points on Zoom that would be helpful for everyone. Do you want to get started, or should I get started on this? Because I have some opinions.

Melissa Leidl: Well, I think there’s a couple of simple takeaways. And I think some of this stuff is also maybe look a little bit different whether you’re having an internal meeting with Zoom meeting, quick catch up with say an associate or myself. I have Zoom meetings every week with our summer associates, and we kind of, it’s a very casual setting.

Alessandra Moore: Great.

Melissa Leidl: You will know the difference, right? So, you should plan accordingly. So, number one, the obvious that you’ve been told hopefully, probably at this point since college, because this is where we are. Make sure your background’s okay. Make sure your connection is good. Make sure you can hear, make sure people can hear you. All of those, that’s kind of ground level. Make sure that there is nothing distracting in your background or people walking by. Make your environment accordingly.

And then, I think it’s just, like I said before, people can see you. So, they can see you’re not paying attention. They can see if you’re working on other things. I always, a lot of times if I’m taking notes or something, I’ll even say, “Oh, just FYI. I’m taking notes here.”

Alessandra Moore: I’m taking notes.

Melissa Leidl: So, if I’m looking down or I’m looking away, that’s what I’m doing. So that’s something that, especially if it’s some smaller group, you can always vocalize that and just say, so they know, they’re aware that you’re not answering emails, you’re taking notes along the way.

So things like that, I think is so important. And your attire. Like I said, if it’s something casual, if you’re meeting with me, I don’t care if you’re in a hoodie. I don’t care at all. If you’re fortunate enough to be in some client meeting that might be held by a Zoom, make sure that you’re appropriately dressed for that occasion.

Doesn’t necessarily mean that you have to wear a suit, but you should be appropriately dressed. Maybe not in a hoodie, maybe not in a T-shirt. It’s the summer, it’s going to be warm, but just make sure. And that could even be whatever associate might be working with you on that, ask them.

Alessandra Moore: Reach out.

Melissa Leidl: Just say, “Quick question. Is there anything in particular I should wear? Should I wear a-, maybe its with the court” You might be needing to wear a suit. So, I would say just always, if you’re not sure, there’s nothing wrong with asking the question, because better that you ask than show up in a hoodie and there’s a judge sitting across from you.

Alessandra Moore: It’s funny. A lot of our clients, we’ve a big startup practice here, and a lot of our clients are these tech bros and are often in hoodies and tee-shirts.

Melissa Leidl: Sure.

Alessandra Moore: Don’t follow their lead. They’re the client. They’re allowed to be in hoodies and tee-shirts on client calls.

Melissa Leidl: Similar, they’ve earned that.

Alessandra Moore: They’ve earned that.

Melissa Leidl: Like we talked about before, don’t compare yourself, because they’ve earned that and to be able to do that. So that’s their-

Alessandra Moore: And I think it’s important to take a step back even further and say, make sure you turn your camera on.

Melissa Leidl: Oh yes.

Alessandra Moore: I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been on Zoom calls where people don’t have their cameras on.

Melissa Leidl: Especially if it’s a one-on-one. I just had that happen to me the other day. It was a one-on-one with a student, and I was with my camera on, and I felt so silly.

Alessandra Moore: You’re looking at yourself, yeah. I was like, “Well, I guess I’ll turn off my camera now.” It’s crazy.

Melissa Leidl: I felt so awkward. So, I think that it’s important or no, you get on the call and everybody has camera off, then that’s okay. Turn your camera off.

Alessandra Moore: Exactly. Exactly.

Melissa Leidl: But kind of go along with the tide.

Alessandra Moore: Right, right. And again, you can overcommunicate, you could reach out to an associate…

Melissa Leidl: 100 percent

Alessandra Moore:   …and say, “Hey, I’m noticing most of their cameras are off. It’s cool if I do that too.”

Melissa Leidl: Absolutely.

Alessandra Moore:   We’re so happy to help our summer associates. Associates everywhere are happy to help. So please reach out with your questions because we can’t read minds.

Melissa Leidl: No, 100 percent.

Alessandra Moore: So, I want to switch gears a little bit, and talk about from a recruiting standpoint, what do you think firms hope to see from summer associates over the course of the summer associate program?

Melissa Leidl: I love this question, and I think it’s something so simple. It’s growth. To me, it’s growth. The expectation is not that you’re going to know everything day one. You shouldn’t. And if you do, then you shouldn’t be in this role because you’re beyond. I don’t even know who you are.

But I think, like I said before, you don’t know what you don’t know. So, I think the most important thing and the most important thing that I look for is, has that summer associate grown in the 10 weeks that they have been there. I always liken it to be a sponge. Take it all in. Take in the feedback, learn from it. Don’t be offended by it. You’re going to get redlined. You’re going to get feedback. If you didn’t, again, then you shouldn’t be here. I don’t know what that looks like. Because this is your opportunity to come in on the ground level and then be something totally different when you leave here in 10 weeks.

Our learning curve is so steep. You are going to learn so much, and just take it all in. Take every opportunity you can. Like I was saying before, you can dabble in different assignments. Make sure you go to the ping pong tournament. Even if it’s something that you think is not what you want to do, or you’re like, “Oh, I’d rather...I don’t really feel like going out tonight or I’ve got some stuff.” Just go for a little bit.

Alessandra Moore: Exactly.

Melissa Leidl: You don’t have to commit to the entire day.

Alessandra Moore: Biggest piece of advice.

Melissa Leidl: Yes. Just go for a little bit. Talk to some people. Talk to some folks that you might not have talked to otherwise. Make sure that when you’re at these events, when you’re at these trainings, that you’re also just not talking to the same people that you’ve talked to repeatedly. Obviously, you’re going to be drawn to the summer associates. Maybe you’re a little bit more introverted, totally fine, but make sure you kind of push yourself out there a little bit.

Get that person. Beforehand, you can always ask, and I’ve had people ask me before too, who’s going? Especially if you’re somebody that might be a little bit nervous, maybe a little apprehensive, maybe you’re not a social butterfly. That’s okay. You can always lean on the recruiting department. I have gotten, over these 20 years, I can’t even tell you how many random questions I’ve gotten. I have heard it all. There is nothing that you’re going to throw at me that I’m not going to know or haven’t heard before.

So, coming to me and saying, “I’m a little nervous about...” Especially the first couple, “I’m a little nervous about going to bowling tonight. I’m not a good bowler. I don’t like it and I don’t know anybody except for the summer associates. I’m still a little shy.” That’s okay. Here’s the list of people that are going. You go back to your desk, you figure out what connectors are you going to make. Like I said before.

Alessandra Moore: Oh, I went to the same undergrad as this person.

Melissa Leidl: Exactly. We went to law school together. We grew up in the same town. We may know the same people. Maybe you both are interested in the same pro bono project. Whatever that looks like, that’s okay. Especially your first couple of events or your first time around, you might be a little nervous, and that’s normal.

And I think it’s normal to want to stick with the people that you know, but I think it’s very important to branch yourself out. And like I said, in terms of the assignments and the work, you’re not going to know it all. And if you think you do, then just buckle up because you are not going to know it all.

And to be quite honest, the ones who think they do, those are the ones that I see have a rougher time. The ones that take it all in, absorb it, take the feedback, take the directive, learn all of that, they’re the ones that are going to succeed at the end of the day because they’re the ones that are malleable. They’re the ones that want it. They’re the ones that want to make that change, and they want to grow and develop.

So, if you’re kind of stuck on day one, where are you going? Where are you going from there? So, I think for me, like I said, growth is the one thing that I really hope to see. And that’s in every facet. And it’s so wonderful to see at such a short amount of time, but the amount of change that happens and what people think they know at the beginning over what happens is their final product when they walk out the door at the end of the 10 weeks is, it’s awesome to me. I love it.

Alessandra Moore: And I want to just pause for a second because if you’re feeling nervous, everybody else is feeling nervous.

Melissa Leidl: Oh, 100 percent. And you are not, like I said before, I’ve heard it all. I’ve literally heard it all because there’s so many commonalities no matter what firm you’re at between summer associates and people kind of going through this process.

So, you’re not going to be the only one. You’re not going to be the only one that has that question. Like I said, I meet with the summers every week and we, it’s a very casual setting, because I make it comfortable for people to ask those questions and to feel confident to say like, “I really don’t know where the iced tea is and all I want is the iced tea.”

Alessandra Moore: Yeah.

Melissa Leidl: That’s okay. That’s a valid concern.

Alessandra Moore: Lowenstein, they should come to you and your team, but at other firms, they should look for the people that are in your type of role.

Melissa Leidl: Yes. Look for your people, right? Yes. And whether that’s a recruiter, whether that is here at Lowenstein, we have what we call our mentor grid. So, you’re assigned a partner mentor, an associate mentor, and then somebody that we like to call a buddy. It’s a junior associate that you can go and ask those types of questions to. And it may seem silly and that’s okay, but that’s what they’re there for. That’s what they live for. So, they’re excited to help and that’s why we put them in those types of roles.

Alessandra Moore: Awesome. So here on the WIN Real Talk podcast, we love to give practical advice. If you could give every summer associate listening to this one piece of practical advice for beginning their summers, what would it be?

Melissa Leidl: I kind of mentioned it before but be a sponge. Take it all in and be yourself. Be who you are. Let people know who you are, what you can do, show us your skills. Like I said, there’s going to be times where you might be the one in the room who doesn’t know anything. That’s okay. Take it all in.

Flip that around. There’s going to be times where you may be in a client meeting, and you may know the answer and nobody else does, and that’s an opportunity. And I think that, show us who you are and what you know, and be respectful of it, obviously, but I think that that’s so important. Just be yourself and take it all in, because that’s the most important part at the end of the day.

Alessandra Moore:  Awesome. Well, Melissa, we can’t thank you enough for coming on. I think we’ll have you back for some other episodes.

Melissa Leidl: I would love to.

Alessandra Moore: Cannot thank you enough for your time, and good luck to all of the summer associates beginning this summer.

Melissa Leidl: Thanks so much.

Rachel Dikovics: Thank you for listening to today’s episode. Please subscribe to our podcast series at Lowenstein.com/podcast, or find us on iTunes, Spotify, Pandora, or SoundCloud. Lowenstein Sandler podcast series are presented by Lowenstein Sandler and cannot be copied or rebroadcast without consent. The information provided is intended for a general audience. It is not legal advice or substitute for the advice of counsel. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. The content reflects the personal views and opinions of the participants. No attorney-client relationship is being created by this podcast, and all rights are reserved.